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Author Topic: Condi roles  (Read 8376 times)

Adotiln Urthadar

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Condi roles
« on: November 26, 2015, 07:32:38 pm »
There's been a bit of discussion recently regarding the viability of certain classes' condi damage. I thought it would be useful to have a look at a few of the more optimal builds and compare them.

Methodology
These tests were performed in the Heart of the Mists against an invincible golem. All classes were geared with a Rabid amulet in order to minimise power damage while still providing the  crit chance that many condis rely on. The builds are taken from metabattle, Death and Taxes' site or occasionally a video build guide. A DPS meter was used, and the standard rotation  performed for ~90s or 5 'kills' of the golem, whichever was longer. This is long enough for the average dps to level out. The numbers obtained are therefore 'real' and were double checked  against the time to kill a golem 5 times to ensure accuracy. Several variants of each build were run, and I chose the highest result for each class.
Only "useless" sigils have been used, as many builds use sigils that are not available in PvP.

DPS results
Reaper ~5000
Engineer ~4800
Ranger ~4400
Berserker ~3800
Guardian ~3200

Aside from the Engineer, the reaper was easily the highest DPS class, largely thanks to its ability to quickly combo a field 12 times. I believe the engineer will beat the reaper if they are playing perfectly, but unfortunately I am not good enough to manage this myself. I relied on a simplified rotation by Nike that provides a good way to use the best skills off cooldown, which is still very good. Of note is that during the test my ping jumped a bit and resulted in the dps dropping to around 4400 due to delay in proper kit switching. This lends some credence to my belief that between individual skill and the more chaotic nature of raids only very good engineers will be able to out-damage an average-skill reaper
(up for debate, of course).
Guardians seem particularly poor here. Their condi relies almost entirely upon whirling wrath, and they are poorly equipped - to get the most out of their burns, they have to use every utility slot for damage, they have a number of traits where two good options compete, and a lot of their damage relies on symbols, which could provide unwanted light fields at the target (though they can time their whirls around this). They also lack cc on condi weapons, and their best option (binding blades) is prone to latching on to seekers.

Combo fields merit a bit of discussion here. Fire is pretty much the best field to have, allowing you to blast it for might and whirl in it for burning. This actually means if another player can provide a field, the Reaper's DPS will be even higher than here, as they lack their own fire field. A single ranger or berserker is able to provide near-constant fire field uptime if set up appropriately.
The reaper's own combo field does high enough damage on its own to merit it being dropped into a fire field, even if it means losing the burning bolts.
The best fields to whirl in or fire through are: Fire > Ethereal > Poison

Flaws
The stats provided by a PvP amulet are obviously lower than will be obtained through ascended gear, food, etc. so these numbers will all be on the low end. Viper's gear is also not
available in PvP, but this deficiency should effect most of the classes in a similar way. This is supposed to provide a rough idea of how classes sit in comparison to each other, the numbers themselves shouldn't matter.
As each class has been taken on its own, this doesn't look at the abilities of other classes to boost one another. For example by stacking might or providing auras. There are so many different ways these could manifest I thought it better for my sanity to just leave it be.

The point of this is not to definitively say which the best condi class to use is, but rather that I believe any class has something to offer in the condition damage role.
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pizzapunt

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 07:46:03 pm »
Why no condi mesmer?

Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 07:50:31 pm »
I couldn't find a PvE condi mesmer guide in the places I looked, and my mesmer is assassin's/berserker so I wouldn't really trust myself to craft a good condi. If you have a specific build in mind I could try to test it. I've heard good things about condi tempests and I'm sure a condi thief can't be as bad as I've heard, but I'd like to give them a fair shot before trying to put numbers on anything (even if I don't want people to take the numbers too seriously).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 07:53:24 pm by Adotiln Urthadar »
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pizzapunt

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 08:20:22 pm »
I might have to put something together. Haven't tried to condi mesmer but with the amount I can shatter it can't be bad.

xadine

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2015, 01:01:40 am »
Before my actual post I just wanna say, I love my reaper, my necro is my main and will alway be my main.

I don't think you can use "DPS against a golem" to adress a "DPS in dungeon" situation.
A golem is basically a rock that just wait for you to punch him. A boss may force the player to "move". A class that have less condi DPS against a golem, may have a higher condi DPS against a boss because it is easier for that class to switch from melee to range (or the opposite).
Lets take the vale guardian as exemple ^^: often the condi is on "green duty", in this situation it'll be harder to perfom a good rotation for a reaper than an engi. doesn't mean the reaper condi DPS will be lower than the engi (it's up to the players skill) just that an engi will have an easier task.

Anyway, ty for the numbers, great job and I fully support the "all classes bring something" idea.

PS: no ele/rev/thief?

Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 02:52:49 am »
Yea, damage against a golem isn't necessarily going to be representative, but I figured it was the most neutral way to compare classes. I actually would have thought the engineer would have it harder - both classes are ranged for the majority of their attacks, and both have a single large attack that requires melee (Soul Spiral and Fire Bomb). The engineer leans so heavily on the efficiency of his kit swaps I would think that time required to dodge/move to green would hurt him more. Additionally Fire Bomb needs to be used more frequently than soul spiral and the Napalm is very susceptible to the boss moving off it. That's just my speculation though, as I haven't tried engineer in raids.
It's important to stress again how ballpark these figures are - which class will do the most damage will vary massively upon situation. I'd consider all of them to be fine in raids (though personally I would keep a guardian as more of a hybrid).

Any class I've left out is due to not being able to find a source for a "standard" optimal condi build for that class and not being comfortable enough with the class to make my own build. I'm happy to test builds people recommend, and I might try making a few builds on those classes but I don't think I'd say what the DPS I achieved was.
Guardian: Adotiln Urthadar
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Mesmer: Elril Darkeyes

Sabetha

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2015, 11:23:20 pm »
I can only speak for a condi Reaper, but we are incredibly good at initial bursts with Gravedigger and Soul Spiral; place a poison field (cough corrosive poison cloud cough) below us and we can deal something like 25-40 stacks of poison apparently, I've done like 25 myself but there's a better way to rack up the stacks from what I've read on GW2's subreddit. Fire fields work even better.

I personally prefer zerk Reaper (might-capped Gravedigger autoattack is best autoattack bow down to us condi plebs) but I can see the merits of a condi Reaper. Might even make Viper gear for it. Someday.

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PilotA

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2015, 04:06:40 pm »


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Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2015, 04:23:45 pm »
The Jagged horror build managed to get up to ~6100 dps under the same conditions as before. Of note is the fact that this build spends long periods without any might, and the high dps is dependent on the jagged horrors. With more allies around that could help keep them alive the damage would be obscene.
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Sabetha

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2015, 07:55:03 pm »
I saw that build and I hated it.

I still want Dhuumfire in any condi build I make, tbh. Soul Reaping I think, is better than Death Magic (unless your minions automatically dying after their duration ends triggers the death novas).

Also fire > poison for damage anyway, and with Soul Reaping there's no reason you can't stay long in Shroud (unless you're the one being the tank in raids, in which case why the [REDACTED] are you even playing a condi?!).
I've finally found what I was looking for
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Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2015, 01:07:15 am »
You don't WANT to stay in shroud for very long because almost all of your high-damage skills exist outside of it. Between this and the cooldown, taking the entire Soul Reaping line just for Dhuumfire would make it my least favourite option. It could be ok for hybrid builds, though?

P.s. Your minions dying of natural causes does indeed trigger Death Nova. Minions don't have a "duration" they just constantly lose health until they die. So if you can keep them alive, they last forever!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 01:12:24 am by Adotiln Urthadar »
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PilotA

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2015, 01:33:03 am »
The only time you unequivocally want SR (and by extension Dhuumfire) is: If you're solo'ing (or just random open-world stuff, whatever, then you choose what you like), or if you're in group content with another necro/reaper already running Blood Magic. Even on a condi build, running BM for your team can be a very noticeable DPS increase, not to mention the fantastic support and utility. Following on, if your team can forgo that then running a build utilising minions is clearly a worthwhile variant. You might well hate it, but it's obviously effective and yet another good option for conditionmancers. Plus, yes, you don't want to camp shroud. Meh, run SR if you like but don't rule out other possibilities :)

Also, "fire > poison" is quite a reductive statement. I know I know, everybody's all hot for burning damage (haw haw) right now, but that doesn't mean it will always be a DPS increase for a condi Reaper to add burning to their arsenal despite its highest-damage ticks. Especially as on a lot of condi builds you don't take Reaper's Onslaught, the burning you stack is thus slower and little enough to potentially be bested by other sources of damage that will synergise with an entirely different traitline.


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Sabetha

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2015, 10:04:24 am »
Fair enough, it's just that burning is the most damaging condition after fear, and it'd be a real shame to not have it in. I like running Blood Magic, it's the first trait I have penned in. Death Magic though... just for the minions? I used to run it as insurance before HoT hit, and after that I found that it wasn't really needed anymore.

Also something I forgot to mention: Corrosive Poison Cloud could be pretty good here for the initial burst, RS4 in a poison field gives you a huge stack to start with. And if you're in a mob, Epidemic would supplement it well...

I've finally found what I was looking for
A place where I can be without remorse
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Here I come

Sabetha

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2015, 10:16:21 am »
P.s. Your minions dying of natural causes does indeed trigger Death Nova. Minions don't have a "duration" they just constantly lose health until they die. So if you can keep them alive, they last forever!

Even the ones from 'Rise!'? Don't they die after 25 seconds?
I've finally found what I was looking for
A place where I can be without remorse
Because I am a stranger who has found
An even stranger war
I've finally found what I was looking for

Here I come

PilotA

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Re: Condi roles
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2015, 04:13:17 pm »
Fair enough, it's just that burning is the most damaging condition after fear, and it'd be a real shame to not have it in. I like running Blood Magic, it's the first trait I have penned in. Death Magic though... just for the minions? I used to run it as insurance before HoT hit, and after that I found that it wasn't really needed anymore.

Also something I forgot to mention: Corrosive Poison Cloud could be pretty good here for the initial burst, RS4 in a poison field gives you a huge stack to start with. And if you're in a mob, Epidemic would supplement it well...

"Could be pretty good"... well... yes... it is the staple of your rotation and you want to be using it off cooldown xD In a non-minion build at least.

As for Death Magic, well you can see what those minions do, and in some situations it would out-DPS the burning you can stack which was my point. You still need Curses and Reaper, so if you want Blood Magic there's your build: no SR.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 04:15:31 pm by PilotA »


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