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Author Topic: Condi roles, post-patch.  (Read 2801 times)

Adotiln Urthadar

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Condi roles, post-patch.
« on: February 06, 2016, 02:46:15 pm »
Much like Adam Jensen, you didn’t ask for this, but here it is anyway - an updated analysis of condi roles as-of the latest patch. I finally managed to get together condi builds for every class, and the new calculations have been made using sinister stats, to give an idea of the raw dps output of classes alongside their pure condi damage.
Here are the classes roughly ranked according to their condi dps and total dps:

Reaper ~ 5000 (5500)
Berserker ~ 4700 (5100)
Elementalist ~ 4200 (5800)
Mesmer ~ 4100 (5700)
Ranger ~ 4000 (5800)
Engineer ~ 3700 (5100)
Guardian ~ 3000 (4600)
Daredevil ~ 2700 (4000)
Herald ~ 2600 (3800)

Class notes:

Reaper - some minor changes to the cooldown on some chill activations were all that happened to the Reaper. The reaper boasts very high condi damage, though has very weak direct damage. If there are exploitable targets to trigger minion creation, the damaged can be pushed ridiculously high. Lacking a fire field, the reaper would also benefit from an ally providing one to combo with.
Berserker - outside the nerf to Scorched Earth, it seems the change to King of Fires has led to a drop in single target condi damage. Combined with very low direct damage, berserker finds itself sitting behind the Reaper.
Tempest - overload is overpowered. Able to stack a ridiculous amount of might mid-fight, and with the second simplest rotation of any condi class the Tempest offers great amounts of both direct and condi damage.
Mesmer - a real surprise here, the mesmer was almost able to match the elementalist for damage, and in reality could probably reach a bit higher. This is thanks to the autoattack change on scepter allowing for decent stacking of torment (making it worth noting that a moving target would take much more damage). With buffs to Duelist’s Discipline and Malicious Sorcery, the mesmer’s best move now is to summon 3 pistol phantasms and autoattack with the scepter forever. This allows the mesmer to maintain around 30 stacks of bleed all by themself. Unfortunately I suspect that mesmers will struggle to maintain all 3 phantasms outside of golem tests, and without Chronomancy it takes a long time to set all 3 up. They also require 2 of their utility slots to be condition damage/duration signets, meaning they bring the least party utility.
Ranger  - with improvements to Expertise Training, Honed Axes and Hidden Barbs, rangers have found themselves with a lot more bleeds, and as a consequence they are one of the highest damage condi classes, though a lot of the damage is direct.
Engineer - a real surprise to me. While most other classes except the Berserker have had some buffs, the Engineer barely changed, and now sits in a middling position. While I believe more can be squeezed out of the engineer with skilled rotations, it is easily the most difficult class to play, and in the heat of battle is more susceptible to big drops in dps coming from mistakes.
Guardian - poor Guardian. While bringing a handful of small party utilities, most of a guardian’s skill bar needs to be taken up with selfish damage skills. It sits long way below the rest of the pack and simply can’t justify itself taking a condi role.
Daredevil - while the daredevil’s numbers are low, it is worth remembering that a Daredevil’s real power comes from its venom share. I haven’t been able to test how good this is, but Brazil seemed enthusiastic.
Herald - pretty much DoA, Herald condi has never worked, and the need to spam skills to maintain its awful dps means that the uptime of its facets is very low too. I’m sorry to anyone who tried to play a condi Herald.

As a general note, the numbers do not take into account self-buffing. This means that two classes in particular (Reaper and Tempest) have numbers slightly inflated due to their ability to stack might. Where possible I tried to minimise this (avoiding traits that stack might, and standing away from fire fields), but it’s worth bearing in mind.
My personal feeling is that currently 7 classes are able to justify their inclusion in condi roles for raids.
Guardian: Adotiln Urthadar
Necromancer: Krisyns Darksbane
Mesmer: Elril Darkeyes

Nova Lelie

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Re: Condi roles, post-patch.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2016, 04:31:15 pm »
Awesome thank you
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

Sabetha

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Re: Condi roles, post-patch.
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 02:43:52 pm »
Condi herald works to a certain extent if you play it as a hybrid, especially since Mallyx's elite already increases your base stats so your normal attacks hit a bit harder.

Also, the facet uptime isn't nearly as worrying (might can be provided by PS warriors, fury can be stacked in duration before a fight, and you can F2 facet anytime). However, it won't be as damaging with conditions this way, so personal DPS will require normal damage to accentuate it. But since it's burns you're using, it won't be too bad.
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Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles, post-patch.
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 04:46:33 am »
Adding a little more Triple Trouble-specific detail as this is now in that subforum.

General notes:
  • Husks can't be properly controlled any more, which makes it a lot harder to force them to aggro on you. Having high toughness and getting immediately
    into melee range seems to help a bit with this, but it's generally best to cc them until they break and try to burn them down quickly before they can aggro on the stack
  • Breaking the husk seems to reset its aggro, so be ready to grab it again as soon as it recovers
  • By and large traits which add x% damage under certain conditions don't apply to condition damage, so avoid them
  • If you're going to be in melee range, bring stability as the husks have an annoying stomp-punch combo that will send you flying
  • Husks spawn roughly every 90s, so it's best if your elite has a recharge of 90s or less

Below are some class notes. They're deliberately loose but I've highlighted important weapons, trait lines and skills.

Reaper
Trait lines: Reaper, Curses.
Weapons: Scepter/Dagger.
Elite Skill: "Chilled to the Bone!" or possibly Plague. "Chilled..." recharges quickly enough to open with it every time a husk spawns and removes a third of the break
bar. Plague gives you an emergency skill which can keep you alive if you're in danger of going down while ticking a little bit of damage and cc every second. If you're
human then Reaper of Grenth is an option.
Key rotations: You can stack around 25 poison in 3 seconds if you use Soul Spiral in a poison field on the husk. Good sources of this are Corrosive Poison Cloud or Chilblains (staff 3).

Berserker
Trait lines: Berserker, Arms.
Weapons: Longbow, Sword/Torch.
Elite Skill: Signet of Rage, Head Butt, or Battle Standard. Signet of Rage will give you the most direct damage, but Head Butt offers a great cc if you need it. You may also need to bring Battle Standard if the stack is low on warriors.
Key rotations: Whenever berserk is available use it, switch to longbow and spam Scorched Earth, Pin Down and Fan of Fire for the duration, switching back to Sword/Torch afterwards.

Tempest
Trait lines: Fire, Arcane, Tempest.
Weapons: Scepter. All other offhands are decent.
Elite Skill: Glyph of Elementals. Save it for the second phase.
Key rotations: As long as you have Persisting Flames (fire grandmaster trait) the fire fields provided by your offhand weapon should last long enough to drop two Dragon's Tooths in. Stay close to keep blasting might on yourself and otherwise camp fire and pretty much use every skill off cooldown.

Mesmer
Trait lines: Duelling, Illusions.
Weapons: Scepter/Pistol.
Elite Skill: Time Warp or Gravity Well. Use gravity well to cc the abomination and use Time Warp on burn phases.
Key rotations: Use Signet of the Ether to create three pistol phantasms and try to maintain them. Use skills 3 and 5 off cooldown and autoattack the rest of the time. Do not use Shatters unless you're a Chronomancer with Chronophantasma (chronomancer grandmaster trait).

Ranger
Trait lines: Skirmishing, Wilderness Survival, Beastmastery.
Weapons: Axe/Torch.
Elite Skill: Entangle or Strength of the Pack.
Key rotations: Using Splitblades inside a fire field could in theory combo 5 times. If you have Quick Draw (skirmishing grandmaster trait) make sure your first skill after weapon swap is your best.

Engineer
Trait lines: Firearms.
Weapons: Pistol/Pistol, duh.
Elite Skill: Mortar Kit.
Key rotations: Standard condi damage kits are flamethrower, grenade and bomb. Making sure you use your best skills off cooldown is essential. These are: Napalm (flamethrower 4), Blowtorch (pistol 4), Fire Bomb (bomb kit 2) and Shrapnel grenade (grenade kit 2). Maintaining a perfect rotation is incredibly difficult, but the best tip is that all these cooldowns are a multiple of 5s, and Shrapnel grenade is on a 5s cooldown. So every 2 Shrapnel Grenades you can use a Fire Bomb, every 3 you can use Blowtorch, and every 6 you can use Napalm.

Thief
Trait lines: Shadow Arts.
Weapons: Dagger/Dagger.
Elite Skill: Basilisk Venom. Impact Strike could work for the cc if you're solo, and Dagger Storm is an option if another condi is providing a good combo field (ideally fire, but ethereal and poison are good too).
Key rotations: Make sure you're near other members of the condi team when you activate your venoms. Use Death Blossom as much as possible. If you have Lotus Training (daredevil grandmaster trait) then be sure to dodge through the husk a lot too. Otherwise just autoattack with your dagger.
Guardian: Adotiln Urthadar
Necromancer: Krisyns Darksbane
Mesmer: Elril Darkeyes

gemgenie

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Re: Condi roles, post-patch.
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2016, 05:10:14 pm »
Some great info there. Thanks Andy :)

Adotiln Urthadar

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Re: Condi roles, post-patch.
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 01:44:24 am »
Much like Adam Jensen, you didn’t ask for this, but here it is anyway - an updated analysis of condi roles as-of the latest patch. I finally managed to get together condi builds for every class, and the new calculations have been made using sinister stats, to give an idea of the raw dps output of classes alongside their pure condi damage.
Here are the classes roughly ranked according to their condi dps and total dps:

Reaper ~ 5000 (5500)
Berserker ~ 4700 (5100)
Elementalist ~ 4200 (5800)
Mesmer ~ 4100 (5700)
Ranger ~ 4000 (5800)
Engineer ~ 3700 (5100)
Guardian ~ 3000 (4600)
Daredevil ~ 2700 (4000)
Herald ~ 2600 (3800)

Class notes:

Reaper - some minor changes to the cooldown on some chill activations were all that happened to the Reaper. The reaper boasts very high condi damage, though has very weak direct damage. If there are exploitable targets to trigger minion creation, the damaged can be pushed ridiculously high. Lacking a fire field, the reaper would also benefit from an ally providing one to combo with.
Berserker - outside the nerf to Scorched Earth, it seems the change to King of Fires has led to a drop in single target condi damage. Combined with very low direct damage, berserker finds itself sitting behind the Reaper.
Tempest - overload is overpowered. Able to stack a ridiculous amount of might mid-fight, and with the second simplest rotation of any condi class the Tempest offers great amounts of both direct and condi damage.
Mesmer - a real surprise here, the mesmer was almost able to match the elementalist for damage, and in reality could probably reach a bit higher. This is thanks to the autoattack change on scepter allowing for decent stacking of torment (making it worth noting that a moving target would take much more damage). With buffs to Duelist’s Discipline and Malicious Sorcery, the mesmer’s best move now is to summon 3 pistol phantasms and autoattack with the scepter forever. This allows the mesmer to maintain around 30 stacks of bleed all by themself. Unfortunately I suspect that mesmers will struggle to maintain all 3 phantasms outside of golem tests, and without Chronomancy it takes a long time to set all 3 up. They also require 2 of their utility slots to be condition damage/duration signets, meaning they bring the least party utility.
Ranger  - with improvements to Expertise Training, Honed Axes and Hidden Barbs, rangers have found themselves with a lot more bleeds, and as a consequence they are one of the highest damage condi classes, though a lot of the damage is direct.
Engineer - a real surprise to me. While most other classes except the Berserker have had some buffs, the Engineer barely changed, and now sits in a middling position. While I believe more can be squeezed out of the engineer with skilled rotations, it is easily the most difficult class to play, and in the heat of battle is more susceptible to big drops in dps coming from mistakes.
Guardian - poor Guardian. While bringing a handful of small party utilities, most of a guardian’s skill bar needs to be taken up with selfish damage skills. It sits long way below the rest of the pack and simply can’t justify itself taking a condi role.
Daredevil - while the daredevil’s numbers are low, it is worth remembering that a Daredevil’s real power comes from its venom share. I haven’t been able to test how good this is, but Brazil seemed enthusiastic.
Herald - pretty much DoA, Herald condi has never worked, and the need to spam skills to maintain its awful dps means that the uptime of its facets is very low too. I’m sorry to anyone who tried to play a condi Herald.

As a general note, the numbers do not take into account self-buffing. This means that two classes in particular (Reaper and Tempest) have numbers slightly inflated due to their ability to stack might. Where possible I tried to minimise this (avoiding traits that stack might, and standing away from fire fields), but it’s worth bearing in mind.
My personal feeling is that currently 7 classes are able to justify their inclusion in condi roles for raids.

25/02 update: small nerfs to necro and ranger are focused on PvP. Ranger remains unchanged and Necro has suffered a tiny DPS loss. In addition, I failed to realise how good Decimate Defences is - switching to this actually led to a DPS increase overall.
Guardian: Adotiln Urthadar
Necromancer: Krisyns Darksbane
Mesmer: Elril Darkeyes